Snake and I have been having this long winded discussion about whether we are doing control or denial. This, of course, means that we have to actually figure out what we mean by those two words….
This all started last week when Thumper posted his May metrics. We, being the nerds that we are, also have spreadsheets and ratios and all of that. Thumper said that he was at 11 for the year so I had to check our stats. Snake is at 6.
We have always said that we are about control and not denial. Where is that line, though? If it doesn’t happen once every x days, is it denial? If the dates are based on games and he pushes out my chosen date, does that push it to denial? If he is supposed to come today but life interferes and it doesn’t happen for two days, is that denial?
To me, the two terms are really closely tied. I deny him when I say no or I set a date that will be the earliest possible time. I control when and how he comes. But that doesn’t mean that I think that I am practicing denial when I do know that eventually it will happen. And, of course, I go round and round in my head with the two ideas.
I keep coming back to the control as the most important piece because of our D/s dynamic. I control him by either denying or allowing him an orgasm. The denial is a component of the control. The control is also sometimes an excess. A lot of ruined orgasms or a lot of edging can be part of the play without an orgasm. If we use an actual full orgasm as the determining factor, he is denied the vast majority of the time. Because of my control….
In our personal blog, Snake wrote this today. It will give you an idea of where he is since I’ve already described my thoughts in a completely confusing way 🙂
You asked earlier in the week about denial vs. control. I’ve thought about it ever since, because it think it comes down to a sense, or attitude or … something. I am having trouble describing the difference. I don’t know if it’s wait times or an emphasis on wait times or just perception (you mentioned you’d typically had a date-ish in mind, just not shared it). I know we’ve always talked about being about control, not denial (we’ve both posted about it and made comments to that end), so clearly there is a difference in our minds, but I’m having trouble describing the difference.
SO, even though you brought it up earlier, and even though I have been thinking it through, I’m not really any closer to defining it. But I think in your mind there is a difference, and in my mind there’s a difference. I do feel like we’re shifting more to denial and from control, but again that could be because of dates known to me at this moment.
So, what are our stats? We are in the second year of tracking and the beginning date of the second year was January 28th. So, since then I have had 367 orgasms, which averages out to 2 3/4 per day. He has had 6, which averages out to one every 22 1/3 days. Our current ration is 61:1. So, does that equal denial? Or is it control?
We’d love to hear what everyone else thinks and how you judge the two terms…Please.
11 thoughts on “Orgasm Control vs. Orgasm Denial”
From where I sit, you’re totally practicing denial. Yes you control when and how, but given how few orgasms he has, it’s absolutely denial.
In my world, orgasm control is more in the context of a play session. TN will edge me repeatedly until I’m begging for release. When I finally get to come, he may force several more out of me until I’m begging him to stop.
I’m inferring from what you both wrote that Charmer views denial as a subset of her control, i.e., her control is the overarching dynamic and denial is a function of her control.
I suspect Snake views it somewhat more like I do. Because of the chastity device, he lives in denial 24/7. I suppose that make denial the overarching dynamic with control being the playing that makes denial good and bad and hot and infuriating.
Have you determined Snake’s ideal time to be denied? I think if he’s consistently denied significantly longer, then if you look at why that is, you’ll figure out if it’s about control or denial from both of your perspectives.
It isn’t really that we are going longer with a plan in mind. The longer waits have been game losses and random dates that he picks without knowing that he is picking. One was a reset. The times have been longer this year, but it’s more coincidence.
I don’t know what he would consider his ideal time to be denied…hopefully he’ll comment on that. 🙂
I can totally see that we would be coming at it from different directions and that could be the difference in semantics.
But seriously, ideal is about 3 weeks, but I do think there is a gap in “definitions” (not good or bad, just a gap) and can’t wait to see how different people consider control vs. denial.
edit: Which makes it sound like we’re exactly on target (looking at averages) but doesn’t really take into consideration actual pacing/spacing.
You’re doing whatever you (collectively) *believe* you are doing. Call it orgasm control or orgasm denial or underwater basket weaving. Your perception is your reality; it doesn’t much matter what you label it.
From an outsider’s perspective, it looks a lot like denial. But I can see Charmer’s point that Denial falls under the umbrella of Control.
Not sure it matters that much, but I side with Charner on this, in that this is more about orgasm control. But that could just be semantics.
My rationale is that I consider control over my orgasm to be an absolute. I don’t ever come without my partner’s decision to let me. I have absolutely no control over that as I gave that to her. In terms of actual numbers, it’s been twice since Nov last year.
I believe I’m rarely denied an orgasm in that I’m not teased or edged that much such that it creates the desire to come or to feel denied. It does happen but isn’t generally a feature of her control.
In my opinion you can’t have denial, without first having control.
MrsL and I discussed this in depth laying in bed this morning while she stoked my balls, creating an intense trapped erection.
We agreed we are practicing both. The orgasm denial happens all of the time. The orgasm control comes in to play when she decides I am to have an orgasm: when, how, and what type.
Makes sense to us…!
“Enforced chastity” is a relatively new kink (subkink?), and there really is no established syntax or agreed-upon terminology. In any chastity group, you can’t even get a dozen people to agree on what “denial” or even “locked up” actually means. Is it 24/7? If the device is removed for cleaning, does that count against your locked up time? Do ruined orgasms mean you have to reset the clock? How many days/weeks/months before control becomes denial?
Admittedly, we jumped right into denial, although it wasn’t our intention. It’s just that the periods of control became longer and longer, until we realized that we were into it for months at a time. We just called it denial because the control aspect was assumed.
But that said, being too hung up on the labels can (for some of us) take the fun and spontaneity out of it. A day, a week, whatever, it’s always about the control. The only factor is how it’s expressed.
I see a lot of label discussions in kink circles. Sometimes those discussions can get downright nasty, to the “you have no right to use that label!” point. Personally, I think labels are convenient shorthand. Control works as a term. Denial does as well.
We use the term “denial” because there is no device. Which means I control when I come, in the technical sense, but Bear tells me when I am allowed to. It’s more about obedience.
And now he’s added “prostate stimulation” to the mix. Which means I expect I’ll ejaculate a lot, on the order of once every one to two weeks a lot, but I’ll be limp when I do. So .. am I still being denied orgasms? Is ejaculation without genital stimulation an orgasm? Who the hell knows. I won’t be tracking these as orgasms. To us, in the way we interact, ejaculation achieved by genital stimulation, complete with the pleasure and the panting and the forcefulness of the ejaculation, is an orgasm. And orgasm achieved by tapping the prostate with a toy for an hour. and being limp during the ejacualtion, is maintenance for health reasons.
I think it depends on the amount of denial required to achieve control. If he is well behaved and obedient, if he doesn’t complain and excessively beg and is still denied for quite extended periods of time then to my mind, (and with my limited experience keeping the ex-husband locked in chastity) I’d say your definitely edging into denial territory. But, if he’s acting out and requires that tight a leash to keep his head in the right space, then it’s still control.
These are my definitions.
Ruined orgasms work wonders for keeping him right on that edge of functioning and completely crazed. (I’ve just discovered your blog and am looking forward to reading more.)
Very interesting topic. I guess there’s a very thin line between orgasm control and orgasm denial. But the more you intentionally delay an orgasm, the intense and explosive it will be when you finally cum. I’m loving the comments too. Thanks for posting this.